Shanghai Trip of Fatima Bhutto

3:00pm | Full House Glamour Bar is a full house of international accents as people settle into the seats, couches and even hop onto stools by the bar (grab a mid-afternoon drink) prepare to listen to the conversation between Fatima Bhutto and Geoff Dyer.

3:18pm | Welcome Geoff Dyer of the Financial Times introduces journalist Fatima Bhutto, who will discuss the current situation in Pakistan.

3:25 | Disappearing Bhutto states that "disappearing" has risen, much as it occurred in various countries in South America in the 70s, 80s and 90s. The term disappeared, developed in South America in relation to forced kidnappings and murders literally means "to cease to exist." She discusses several cases and shares one recent story in particular. "In November of 2007 I was in Baluchistan, and I went to visit a family whose son had disappeared. Babusa Milani, 28-year-old university graduate in sociology. He became active with the Baloch National Party. He was disappeared when he set out for the park at 3pm in the afternoon. The family did some amazing things. They held vigils, his nieces held street marches in their neighborhood. Finally after all this posturing, they found that he had been located in one of the prisons." Bhutto says that, because of the women who came out in protest, because of the media clubs, because of the public movement, she received word as she boarded the plane to come to Hong Kong and Shanghai, that Milani had been released.

3:35 | U.S. Realizations Bhutto says that "we have to remind people that we are a young state." Pakistan has only been independent for a little over 60 years. Having just recently broken free from the yolk of colonialism, they're not about to willfully allow another foreign power to take over. "America needs to understand this," says Bhutto.

3:37 | It Comes from the People People have been reappeared, but not through the government, through the people. Babusa Milani's 8-year-old niece was part of mobilizing the children. But, she says, Musharraf has to be given some credit for opening the media. "Before Musharraf you just had state TV. And anyone who's had state TV knows that that doesn't make for great viewing," she says. "That's been amazing. Now, when the government wants to silence the press, they can. But you find that almost instantly they'll start broadcasting on the internet. You can't stop people from gaining access to the internet (and YouTube). The media is an incredibly hopeful attitude."

3:40 | Women with Beards Says Bhutto, "I know people think that women in Pakistan all have beards and are not very political but the women in Pakistan are some of the most politically active and courageous." Bhutto relates the story of Mukhtar Mai, a divorced woman (something taboo in Pakistani society), who was gang raped by a group of feudal lords. When she complained they told her that her family would be threatened. But she said, "shove it" and she filed a police report. In a country where violence against women is something you don't really talk about, she said "No" and she fought this. She went to the media, internationally, and across Pakistan. Does she end violence against women? No, but she's changing a culture. And other women are coming out now and speaking out.

3:45 | Is it Hard to be a Bhutto? "A name is just a name," says Bhutto. "If it changes, it doesn’t change who I am … when I wake up, I don’t say, 'oh, I’m a Bhutto – it’s going to be a good morning.'" "Apparently you can change them [your name] now too," Bhutto quips.

3:46 | The Dynasty As Dryer continues the questions about her family, Bhutto explains that, “we have different political beliefs and to be perfectly honest, having lived in a dynasty and seeing what dynasty can do with a country, I think it’s an unsophisticated and it’s a bit like monarchy." Bhutto continues that, "Dynasties can be stifling and I don’t think their productive. If we’re serious about the democratic process, it has to be opened up and advancement has to be done on merit ... I can’t pack my bags and move out of dynasty land but I can make a choice and I won’t support a process I don’t believe in."

3:48 | On Violence "If anything Pakistani people are survivors, they have the most resilient spirit I've ever seen. When it gets violent we keep going, just more carefully," says Bhutto, whose own family has seen a fair amount of violence over the years. On the rash of suicide bombings in the last while, Bhutto says, "It's important to remember we don't have a history with this. It's only since the War on Terrorism that we've started to see this." Some violence will be done, people will die, and that's all. There's no declaration by the bombers presented, so people are wary of who this person is, is the threat really gone.

3:51 | Islam and Democracy Asks Dyer, "Is Islam incompatible with democracy?" No, says Bhutto. "In Pakistan, Islam is not the problem. Poverty is the problem. Corruption is the problem, incompetence is the problem. There's an over-simplicity in media, it's easier to say it's Islam. In Egypt, Islam is not the problem, corrupt government is the problem."

3:54 | Women and Islam She says, as a Muslim woman, "if you're aware of your rights, it's hard for someone to put you down." Bhutto says that there are many rights for women afforded in Islam, whether they are granted is a different story. Drawing on a symbol usually rallied around in the West as a sign of oppression, she says that the only time she says she properly used the traditional Islamic hair covering was on the subway on her way to the festival, because it was cold.

3:57 | Pakistan and China Bhutto explains that Pakistan and China historically have had a god relationship. Bhutto cites the earthquake in 2005 when, "we relied very heavily on foreign aid and expertise." Although many countries, she says, donated doctors and aid money, the "two countries that were serious and that stayed for more than a month were China and Cuba." With respect to her trip to Shanghai, Bhutto says that, "Coming here to China, I see we [in Pakistan] don’t have the slightest clue about China though … it’s an enormous country … we need to have more interaction between the Pakistani and Chinese people for a better understanding of each other."

4:00 | Pakistan and India In response to a question about why India's development has excelled more quickly than Pakistan, Bhutto reminds the audience that they are two separate sovereign countries and that Pakistan has, unlike India, been under military rule for a long time and India has not been although the people view each other as siblings." Democracy is due but, "Pakistan wants democracy that's theirs, not Indian or American," she says. "We had it in the past and we can do it again."

4:11 | Freedom of Speech Former City Weekend intern, Cameron Willard, pops the question about what Bhutto thinks about the publication of Danish cartoons that are openly racist towards Islam and the conflict between freedom of the press and racism. Says Bhutto, "Freedom of speech is very different than hate speech."
Says Bhutto in response to a question about the American point of view given the border situation with Afghanistan, "Pakistan and Afghanistan got along well with each other. The problem is not the porous border between the two nations, the problem is the American involvement." Bhutto also notes that this isn't the first time that Pakistan has been asked by the U.S. to act as a conduit for their military incursions into the Middle East. Clearly, Bhutto feels that military incursions are largely responsible for the destabilization and problems of the region.

4:12 | Take to the Streets An audience member asks, "You say that hope will come from the people and the media … why don’t people take to the street? When will people fight back and do something?" Bhutto responds, "Pakistani people are hungry and dispossessed." Bhutto relates a story of when she was helping to run a medical camp in a city where, "there’s only one government hospital and government is reluctant to provide for the people. If you need medical care, you have to pay for private care, which is exorbitant for most people ... Since the government hospital is so far, most of the children have scabies since they cannot afford the treatment ... At the camp all the doctors were volunteers and all medicine was donated." After treating a woman at the camp, she woman came back an hour later with her son. Bhutto said it was clear the child had polio, but the woman had no idea, only that her son was sick and had been that way since he was a child. Bhutto used the story to explain that, "You have a population without basic access to services. People have no strength to fight theses mammoth fight. It's not a coincidence that there are no government hospitals … in one province the price of bread went up 900 percent in one month, when you have to think about that, it’s difficult to fight the machine."

4:15 | Static Stopper Problems with the sound system ... Michelle looks a bit frustrated with technology as she converses with a few of the M staff on how to quickly fix the problem. A few moments later, problem solved.

4:22 | Why Radical Islam? "The answer is simple and frightening," says Bhutto. "There are parts of the country where the government is not visible at all. And what happens is that Islamic parties or organizations will come in and set up a madrassa. And when your choice is to either send your son to a madrassa where he can get a meal and learn or remain illiterate, which do you choose?" Another example Bhutto explains is that of Pakistan after the last earthquake. She says after the earthquake the government had no clue what to do, "but the Islamic party was there within house and set up a tent village to help people. The village has food, doctors and a mosque ... [fundamentalist movements] also do things like provide education for girls ... the government doesn’t do that." Bhutto explains that, "[radical Islam] can be avoided, it can exists as option, but here [in Pakistan] there are no options. This religious movement has been growing in Pakistan for a very long time; this is 20 years of their services and social programs."

4:25 | Princess Fatima Asks M on the Bund's Rob, "As you're a journalist, has anyone ever referred to you as the Princess Diana of Pakistan?" [Fatima laughs]. "No," she replies lightly, "I don't do charity work as such ..." As a humorous afterthought she adds, "I've been called other things but not a princess." Michelle Garnaut breaks off the session saying, "I think it's great to end on a light note."